In this no-holds-barred conversation, Brij Pahwa speaks to Rand Fishkin — co-founder of SparkToro and one of the most influential voices in marketing technology, globally. Fishkin dismantles long-held marketing beliefs — from the myth of measurable funnels to the overhyped promise of AI. He reveals why email still beats social, what marketers get completely wrong about audiences, and how to actually build trust in 2025.

What key shift in the marketing ecosystem prompted you to start SparkToro — and what blind spot were you aiming to solve?
I had long found it frustrating that there was no easily available data to tell me which websites, networks, apps, podcasts, YouTube channels, etc. a given audience paid attention to. SparkToro was meant to plug that gap, and although it's been a real challenge to accomplish, I'm pretty impressed with how far we've come.

With the deprecation of cookies and stricter privacy norms, how should marketers reimagine audience research and targeting? Are we entering a “post-demographic” world?
Weirdly, I think we're getting into a marketing world that's more reliant on audience groups with shared behaviors and demographics over individual, cookie-able/trackable users. It's true that demographics and other audience traits moving forward will be less precise, but it will also enable us to react/respond to what groups of people want and how they behave. As far as targeting goes, in paid channels, I think much of what we've done will remain similar, but for organic, we're in for a big shakeup. The end of referring traffic, the hoarding of visits by the big platforms, and the loss of referral strings and cross-visit tracking will mean marketers have to move away from the old methods of measuring success.

Today’s marketing tech stack is overflowing with tools — over 14,000 and counting. What do you think is genuinely moving the needle for marketers today, and what’s just noise?
Oddly enough, most of those 14,000+ products have enough customers to sustainably operate. There are probably a couple thousand that are VC-backed and will die off in the next few years, but plenty more will come to replace them. I think the "noise" among tool providers is different for every company. What's useful to some isn't to others, and there's no reason to assume that another company's MarTech stack is indicative of what you should use. The diversity of products represents the diversity of use-cases and needs!

With AI tools generating content at scale, how do you define “authentic” content in 2025? What separates truly impactful thought leadership from SEO filler?
I still have yet to see a single thought leadership piece that was shared/amplified by someone I trust AND was written by an AI. Certainly seems to me that (thankfully) the LLMs aren't yet good enough at content creation that they can replace human beings (at least, those who create stuff that earns real traction).

You’ve spoken often about trust. In a time where everyone is a “thought leader,” how do you advise brands and individuals to earn — not just claim — audience trust?
I'm not sure I agree with the assessment that "everyone is a thought leader." In fact, I'd argue that we're actually down from the height of the thought leadership content bubble of the 2016–2020 era. The creator economy is thriving and growing, but it's far more diverse in the styles and types of content nowadays. Thought leadership content may be right for a few, but I think many brands have realized it's not the only or best way for them to build an audience.

Where do you see the best opportunity for brands and individuals to build durable audiences right now? Is email still king, or has the game changed?
Absolutely email is still king. I'd rather have 10 email subscribers than 1,000 fans/subscribers on any social network. The ability to reach those people consistently and earn their engagement is 100X higher. That's not to say I ignore social media channels or recommend that anyone else does. In fact, I think social is a great way to build up your email following; it's just not a great place for reliable, consistent reach.

With attribution becoming murkier, especially in B2B, how should marketers think about the effectiveness of brand building versus direct performance metrics?
We're going to have to measure brand with something other than traffic. That might be a combination of subscribers, engagement rates, reach, and other metrics once derided as "vanity." And it also certainly includes branded search demand and seasonally-adjusted (and possibly macroeconomic-condition-adjusted) performance, too.

How should marketers navigate the subtle (and not-so-subtle) biases built into platforms, from Google to LinkedIn to Meta? What’s the responsibility of marketers here?
Be where your audience goes. Stop worrying about how unfair and rigged the systems are and play the hand you're dealt. There's no other logical way to approach this.

After decades in the field, what do you think is the most persistent myth in digital marketing that still refuses to die?
The biggest myth of all: customer purchase journeys are logical, consistent, short, uncomplex, and (worst of all) fully measurable. I urge marketers and those investing in marketing to get comfortable with the long, complicated, multi-touch, unmeasurable reality of how people choose what they buy.

If you had 10 minutes with a newly hired CMO, what advice would you give them about building marketing strategies in 2025?
Every conversation would be different, because every company's marketing mix, strategy, tactics, and investments should be different! Maybe the only consistent thing I might help them understand is how to measure: based on testing investments and watching for long-term lift vs. trying to perfectly attribute conversions.